Thuum.org

A community for the dragon language of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Thuum.org

A community for the dragon language of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

The "J" Proposal

 1 

ASTORKiT
March 19, 2013

The language seems to have a very Nordic/Germanic feel to it, as well as a few English flecks here and there. Paarthurnax and I were discussing about how best to pronounce 'J' in a word.

I think, personally, the Dragon Language has strong Nordic roots, and in languages like Norwegian 'J' is pronounced as a 'Y' sort of sound, think "Hjerim" which sounds more like "Yerim", or the Norwegian word "Kjæledyr", which sounds more like "Shall-dir". It would allow much more interesting sounding words, but it would mean that any existing words would need to be examined and altered, or exceptions placed.

 

Any thoughts?

by ASTORKiT
March 19, 2013

The language seems to have a very Nordic/Germanic feel to it, as well as a few English flecks here and there. Paarthurnax and I were discussing about how best to pronounce 'J' in a word.

I think, personally, the Dragon Language has strong Nordic roots, and in languages like Norwegian 'J' is pronounced as a 'Y' sort of sound, think "Hjerim" which sounds more like "Yerim", or the Norwegian word "Kjæledyr", which sounds more like "Shall-dir". It would allow much more interesting sounding words, but it would mean that any existing words would need to be examined and altered, or exceptions placed.

 

Any thoughts?


paarthurnax
Administrator
March 19, 2013

Canonically, "j" has been pronounced exactly like it is in English.  The most prominent example is the word "joor", spoken by Paarthurnax, Alduin, and the player character in the Dragonrend Shout.

However, we haven't seen the combination of "hj" in the Dragon Language at all yet, while it is very prominent in a lot of the Nordic names: "Hjaalti", "Hjerim", and "Hjaalmarch".  Here it's pronounced like "Y", although the "H" is still there in the pronunciation too.

Since the Dragon Language and the Nordic Language are so closely intertwined, we could potentially introduce "hj" into the Dragon Language if we wanted to.  Alternatively, maybe there's another "dialect" of the Dragon Language that pronounces "J" like "Y".  The Dragon Language as spoken by dragons would remain forever unchanged, but once Nords started speaking it I imagine it might have gone under some changes.

by paarthurnax
March 19, 2013

Canonically, "j" has been pronounced exactly like it is in English.  The most prominent example is the word "joor", spoken by Paarthurnax, Alduin, and the player character in the Dragonrend Shout.

However, we haven't seen the combination of "hj" in the Dragon Language at all yet, while it is very prominent in a lot of the Nordic names: "Hjaalti", "Hjerim", and "Hjaalmarch".  Here it's pronounced like "Y", although the "H" is still there in the pronunciation too.

Since the Dragon Language and the Nordic Language are so closely intertwined, we could potentially introduce "hj" into the Dragon Language if we wanted to.  Alternatively, maybe there's another "dialect" of the Dragon Language that pronounces "J" like "Y".  The Dragon Language as spoken by dragons would remain forever unchanged, but once Nords started speaking it I imagine it might have gone under some changes.


ASTORKiT
March 19, 2013
paarthurnax

The Dragon Language as spoken by dragons would remain forever unchanged, but once Nords started speaking it I imagine it might have gone under some changes.

In the same way languages evolve, you mean? I think that's an interesting concept.

As for the Hj, I think that's a very interesting dipthong (it is a dipthong, right?) that could be well utilised in the Dragon Language, and I think, could create a sound that fits very nicely with the collection we already have.

Would it just be an additonal sound, or a whole new character? I think a sound would be best, as editing the font is a lot of work for one character. hj seems to look okay.

Would the H be sounded, or would it be silent-ish? I think both would be good, like Hjerim and hY(j)erim, what do you think?

by ASTORKiT
March 19, 2013
paarthurnax

The Dragon Language as spoken by dragons would remain forever unchanged, but once Nords started speaking it I imagine it might have gone under some changes.

In the same way languages evolve, you mean? I think that's an interesting concept.

As for the Hj, I think that's a very interesting dipthong (it is a dipthong, right?) that could be well utilised in the Dragon Language, and I think, could create a sound that fits very nicely with the collection we already have.

Would it just be an additonal sound, or a whole new character? I think a sound would be best, as editing the font is a lot of work for one character. hj seems to look okay.

Would the H be sounded, or would it be silent-ish? I think both would be good, like Hjerim and hY(j)erim, what do you think?


paarthurnax
Administrator
March 19, 2013
ASTORKiT

In the same way languages evolve, you mean? I think that's an interesting concept.

Since Dragons are immortal, I imagine their language is also "immortal" and unchanging in a sense. Our own languages change often and have a lot of dialects and forms, perhaps the same became true when the Nords started learning the Dragon Language.

Would it just be an additonal sound, or a whole new character? I think a sound would be best, as editing the font is a lot of work for one character. hj seems to look okay.

"Hj" is perfectly fine, I'd be against making a new letter at this point.

Would the H be sounded, or would it be silent-ish? I think both would be good, like Hjerim and hY(j)erim, what do you think?

Here's a pronunciation of "Hjalti".  I would say that the "H" is voiced, like "hyalti", "hyerim", etc.  If it was pronounced as simply "Y", I'd see no point in introducing it.  This way, it's a unique sound of its own.

But overall, I approve of making "hj" part of the language.  I think it fits very well.

by paarthurnax
March 19, 2013
ASTORKiT

In the same way languages evolve, you mean? I think that's an interesting concept.

Since Dragons are immortal, I imagine their language is also "immortal" and unchanging in a sense. Our own languages change often and have a lot of dialects and forms, perhaps the same became true when the Nords started learning the Dragon Language.

Would it just be an additonal sound, or a whole new character? I think a sound would be best, as editing the font is a lot of work for one character. hj seems to look okay.

"Hj" is perfectly fine, I'd be against making a new letter at this point.

Would the H be sounded, or would it be silent-ish? I think both would be good, like Hjerim and hY(j)erim, what do you think?

Here's a pronunciation of "Hjalti".  I would say that the "H" is voiced, like "hyalti", "hyerim", etc.  If it was pronounced as simply "Y", I'd see no point in introducing it.  This way, it's a unique sound of its own.

But overall, I approve of making "hj" part of the language.  I think it fits very well.


ASTORKiT
March 19, 2013

I agree, hj would make a great addition as its own sound, something uniquely human in an immortal language.

Do we need more approval at this point or is it as good as done? I'm happy to wait for more approval but it's ultimately your choice.

by ASTORKiT
March 19, 2013

I agree, hj would make a great addition as its own sound, something uniquely human in an immortal language.

Do we need more approval at this point or is it as good as done? I'm happy to wait for more approval but it's ultimately your choice.


paarthurnax
Administrator
March 19, 2013

I think it's a safe addition to make.  If anyone strongly objects, they can do so here.  The safe thing about it is that there aren't any canonical words that use "hj" so for people who are really into preserving canon, this doesn't affect it in any way.

by paarthurnax
March 19, 2013

I think it's a safe addition to make.  If anyone strongly objects, they can do so here.  The safe thing about it is that there aren't any canonical words that use "hj" so for people who are really into preserving canon, this doesn't affect it in any way.


otakufreak40
March 25, 2013

Sorry for being so late, but I just found something about the matter that may or may not be canon. The theme, "Song of the Dragonborn", seems to use both pronunciations for "j". The English "j" for "reyliik do jul" and the Eastern European "j" for "Alduin jot".

Curiously, we don't seem to have a Spanish "j", though I guess "h" does take that position.

by otakufreak40
March 25, 2013

Sorry for being so late, but I just found something about the matter that may or may not be canon. The theme, "Song of the Dragonborn", seems to use both pronunciations for "j". The English "j" for "reyliik do jul" and the Eastern European "j" for "Alduin jot".

Curiously, we don't seem to have a Spanish "j", though I guess "h" does take that position.

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