Over the past couple of weeks, there have been some serious discussions regarding the current state of the Dovahzul dictionary. The dictionary has over 6,000 words, ~600 of them canon and ~5,500 of them non-canon. As our understanding of the language changed, so did our methods of creating words, and that meant endlessly revising words. The Word Revision Thread is 1,500 posts long.

The main sentiment in these discussions are threefold:

• The non-canon vocabulary is too large and bloated to accomodate any dictionary-wide changes that would benefit the canon
• The non-canon vocabulary is inconsistent, redundant, and doesn't fit the vision of the original language
• It would be better to start from scratch with our current understanding of the language than revise the existing ~5,500 words

Our conclusion is that we want to delete all invented words and create a new invented vocabulary with a stronger basis in canon.

When working with constructed languages, remaking the vocabulary is part of the process. This is obviously more difficult when it involves the work of hundreds of people. The plan of action would look like this:

1. Set up a legacy dictionary for all current words
2. Publish a new, canon-only dictionary with updated layout and information
3. Firmly document and establish the vocabulary rules of the language as we know them
4. Form a small group of people who will create the new vocabulary

The idea isn't to replace all 5,500 non-canon words with more canon-friendly alternatives, but to wipe the slate completely clean and build the highest-quality invented vocabulary that we can with a strong basis in canon and The Elder Scrolls universe from a draconic perspective.

This change would affect everyone who uses the site, and so it's important to us that your voice is heard if you have an opinion on the subject. Everyone studies the dragon language for different reasons and has different experiences with it. Let us know what you think and, if this change takes place, what tools or features would be useful for you to make the transition.

This is bittersweet news. Not that I would stand to lose much; my words are a mere half dozen and my literary work comprises four stanzas in its entirety. But late as I am to the party, I have still eagerly followed the development of Dovahzul into its present form. It is the language I feel most connected with.

Ultimately I believe that a restart will only serve for the good of Dovahzul. Many a time I have suspiciously eyed some malformed word or another. The current structure is teeming with features that had best be left in English cyphers, and they weigh the language down.

Let us start over, as if we were giving our past selves the vast knowledge the years have built. Saraan uth, thuri.

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As I have stated before on the Scholar's Wall, I'm all for these changes. I'd love to help out with the new vocab, too.

You have my full support for all of these changes, including anything I can do to help with the process of restarting.

I certainly understand the reason for wanting a clean start. Like you mentioned, it would be more practical than trying to revise such a large and inconsistent vocabulary.

This seems like a very good idea. My only question iss about number 4 in the plan of action. Is number 4 saying common users would not be able to submit new words in the future? Or does it mean that the new submitted words would be run through a stricter admission format to ensure they are closer to cannon, and more consistent with other non-cannon or semicannon words? Or did I misinterpret number 4 entirely? Apologies if so.

Mirahdobrom

This seems like a very good idea. My only question iss about number 4 in the plan of action. Is number 4 saying common users would not be able to submit new words in the future? Or does it mean that the new submitted words would be run through a stricter admission format to ensure they are closer to cannon, and more consistent with other non-cannon or semicannon words? Or did I misinterpret number 4 entirely? Apologies if so.

Correct, common users would no longer be able to submit new words. There will be a group of people knowledgeable in the language who will handle that task.

The new dictionary entry format and guidelines will be so rigorous, that common users needing to learn it and the moderating team needing to repeatedly explain it would be more trouble than it's worth. Rather, if there's someone who wants to help come up with new words, they can undertake learning the system themselves and become part of that group.

There enlies a problem, in #4.

I believe a large part of what holds this community together is the common ability to create wods. However, I'd like to see a more canonical vocabulary, I also like the idea of having more modernized words. Sure, being entirely draconic is ideal, but the ability to wholly converse in this tongue in a modern context is what inspires me and I'm sure many others to even use it.

Though I suppose people like me could always use the legacy vocabulary for it, and I'd love the idea of an open legacy dictionary, submittable from all, completely non-canon, and off to the side for those using it more casually.

I'm sure a lot of what I just said was a load of bull to you, but thanks for listening haha.

As Hobby linguist who leanrs reconstructed languages (Proto Norse, Proto Germanic) i agree with Paarthurnax - we should really erase all non canon words from existance and start new, now that we have a better understanding of the language.

But before we create new words we have to create a set of rules for word creation that fits our understanding of the language. As he said the words should not only stick to canon in terms of sound, writing and word origin but also and in special the mindset. Flee is "dark flight" and not run away, fly way or something from a human perspective. Thus, to give an example, a car cant be translated as metal horse as dragons dont use horses for travelling and thus it wouldnt have much meaning to them. But it may look like a beetle from above and thus big metal beetle may be more accurate. Or human travelling device.

I recommend going into the icelandic language evolution there as icelanders do not want to adapt words from foreign languages and thus try to create words in their own language that describe this new thing. You may get some serious inspiration on how to adapt words into a language by replacing them with a good short description in the language.

I completly support the idea of restarting. Also restarting is actually less work than revising the words that already exist.

I also recommend that new words are discussed by a team of experts before making them official - it shouldnt be a single person accepting words as that may lead to one sided ideas in the language and the inventor may not have thought of certain aspects. it is a lot of work but saves even more work in the future.

I am a new member to this site but I was well educated in Dovahzul before I knew about it. I believe that your ideas to "restart" the dictionary could prove wise in most instances. Make a separate group of moderators that could control word entries and possibly teach others willing to join them. However, I agree with Orkar Isber. A language used by dragons should be from a dragon's point of view. Looking through the dictionary at modern words made it seem too humanized. I believe starting anew with be difficult, but ultimately pay off in the long run with a more canon-structured, dragonic vocabulary. Personally, when I learned this dictionary had modernized words, I was slightly disappointed. I liked having an original, ancient language. I know I'm not very experienced when it comes to this forum, but I hope my thoughts reflect some of the others on here.

With the sudden influx of new members I would imagine that word revision must be under stress. Also, it appears that as more canon rules or trends are discovered more words are made redundant. So yeah, I can't argue.

Also it seems that most of the new members haven't posted a word, and some of the old members have one or two and only thread posts left. Most people wouldn't feel the full effects.

Oh i also wanted to suggest to try to NOT use words that already exist in real languages. I know there are examples in canon for this "(like "Luft" - face is actually german for air or Klo - Sand is german for toilet) but i also found that quite confusing in the non canon words like "Tanz" - dance which is the same in german. But its quite confusing and id like to avoid that if possible

Orkar Isber

Oh i also wanted to suggest to try to NOT use words that already exist in real languages. I know there are examples in canon for this "(like "Luft" - face is actually german for air or Klo - Sand is german for toilet) but i also found that quite confusing in the non canon words like "Tanz" - dance which is the same in german. But its quite confusing and id like to avoid that if possible

I agree for the most part, though sometimes it's simply a coincidence. We can't account for every word in every language, so if a word is by all other means well-formed, I don't think other languages should inform whether or not to create that word.

I have only been here for a short time, and I do not have the wonderful language background of many of the members here. That being said, as a new member, the dictionary right now is both incredibly helpful and a bit confusing and redundant- but the entire language is new and confusing as well. Occasionally, I find myself having to use either a modern or non-cannon word to describe what it is I am trying to say. While I sometimes can build the word out of canon the result is often klunky, vague, and leaves me feeling that I have wasted my voice on something that could have been achieved in a simple way. 

I agree that the dictionary needs to be revised, and that starting over is the best way to do it. A small dedicated group of people coming up with better words sounds like the best way to create dovahzul in the spirit of the language. However, I think that many users would want to be able to either submit words for review or ask for a word to be made.

Again, I have very little experience or knowledge of languages. I can only submit what I have experienced and assume that there are others who share this with me.