To word order - in Dovahzul seemingly the number 3 is very important, names, shouts, phrases all consist of 3 words. 

Does the order of these words change their meaning? I mean, in languages where you can choose word order freely like old norse, its commong to put words that are most important or you on which you want to put emphasis, are at the beginning of a sentence, while less important information or stuff you want to downscale in importance is put last.

As example, Sword King gave to me (correct ON structure) would say that the Sword is the important thing, likely an artifact. while king gave to me sword would state that it is important that the king himself gave you something, if its a sword or a shoe...the hell the fucking king gave you something.

To me king sword gave would state that its important that YOU got it and no one else...

So structure changes meaning.

is this the case for dovahzul as well? 

Is Drem Yol Lok the same as Lok Yol Drem? Or is there a different meaning behind?

Does Aaz Hah So state that you are really sorry and beg for mercy and So Hah Aaaz, that you give your sympathies, condolences?

For me it would make sense that these 3 word phrases have slightly different meaning, that changes with word order, the first word being the one emphasised and the last being the unimportant?

How do you think about that?

Shouts and Shout-like phrases do not follow any sort of grammar, so you could theoretically rearrange the words however you'd like. For example, it may be possible that "Ro Dah Fus!" is identical to "Fus Ro Dah!" if your intentions are the same. The game is very strict about the order of the words, though, but it's hard to say if this is part of the lore or simply due to gameplay mechanics.

The same is not true for the rest of Dovahzul speech. Word order is very important. The Germanic languages have robust case systems that help indicate parts of speech, so word order can be very flexible. Dovahzul is not like this, so Subject-Verb-Object must be followed in complete sentences.

paarthurnax

 For example, it may be possible that "Ro Dah Fus!" is identical to "Fus Ro Dah!" if your intentions are the same. 

Ok but - language does express intention, emotion etc. So if i say "Ro Dh Fus" i actually do say something else than "Fus Ro Dah" so its logical that the meaning and what i want to express changes along.

Indeed having the same words and order to express different things would only be possible if you have something to differ - chinese does that with different tones, so while 2 words may have the exact same sound they are spoken in different tones to change meaning.

So a deep Fus Ro Dah would have a different meaning to a high Fus Ro Dah.

Or you would use sign language in addition, to express a difference or mimics - which dovah both cant do. or not well.

So either they basicly communicate by telepathy or a Fus Ro Dah would mean something else than Ro Dah Fus at least that what sounds logical to me or am i totally mistaken?

I just mean, if your intention is what counts you either have to use telepathy, word order, tonation, or something else to express that intention.

as human example if i say "i will kill you" slowly, deep, silent, it shows my intent to kill you, in special if i look you directly in the eyes, intimidating.

If i say "i will kill you" while laughing and running after you because you took away my iphone it has a completly different meaning and expresses that you should give my fckn phone back, a situation siblings may know.

But there must be a way to tell the difference somehow

You might be overthinking it. The power of the Thu'um is magic. The words are just vehicles of that magic. The specific order, pronunciation, or meaning of the words does not matter.

but in names and phrases? drem yol lok afaik is a phrase not a thuum - so would yol drem lok mean the same? or something different? similiar with other 3 word phrases like suum arhk morah - morah ahrk suum? 

i am sorry for being so a nusiance - i am an autist and therefore i think a lot about things. ^^

Orkar Isber

but in names and phrases? drem yol lok afaik is a phrase not a thuum - so would yol drem lok mean the same? or something different? similiar with other 3 word phrases like suum arhk morah - morah ahrk suum? 

i am sorry for being so a nusiance - i am an autist and therefore i think a lot about things. ^^

No worries, I appreciate your questions because they make me think about the language in ways I might not have before.

My previous response was only in regards to the power of the Thu'um, Dragon Shouts. When it comes to actual sentences like su'um ahrk morah "breath and focus," word order does matter. Morah ahrk su'um "focus and breath" is grammatically correct but doesn't work quite the same; you must have breath before you can have focus. Ahrk morah su'um would mean something entirely different; "and focused breath." Su'um morah ahrk "breath focus and" would be grammatically incorrect.

paarthurnax

No worries, I appreciate your questions because they make me think about the language in ways I might not have before.

In that case i have even more. In the game seemingly grammar is used properly (from the speeches i heard they use plural) but in the official songs like "sovngarde" there seem to be problems.

As example it says "Alduin feyn do jun" which would translate, if i am correct as "Alduin bane of king" - did they just leave out the article or is it to be "kings" which sounds more appropiate but than it would have to be junne ?

Which raises the question again how serious Bethesda was with creating the language. I mean having professional linguists or the Tolkien "hobby approach" To me it seems that the official songs use a different grammar than the speech in game which is kinda weird 

Orkar Isber

paarthurnax

No worries, I appreciate your questions because they make me think about the language in ways I might not have before.

In that case i have even more. In the game seemingly grammar is used properly (from the speeches i heard they use plural) but in the official songs like "sovngarde" there seem to be problems.

As example it says "Alduin feyn do jun" which would translate, if i am correct as "Alduin bane of king" - did they just leave out the article or is it to be "kings" which sounds more appropiate but than it would have to be junne ?

 

Which raises the question again how serious Bethesda was with creating the language. I mean having professional linguists or the Tolkien "hobby approach" To me it seems that the official songs use a different grammar than the speech in game which is kinda weird 

I would recommend reading the Lessons, as they will sometimes have the answers you're looking for. In this case, the absence of articles and plural suffixes isn't a mistake but a feature of the language. These things may be cut and left to context in order to place further emphasis on other words (also a trait of Old English, one of the language's primary inspirations).

Actually i did, but it is kinda...confusing. As stated in another thread it is very hard to get detailed information from one being to the other, if the grammar is limited. You would need 5 sentences to express what other languages do in 1. Or the very complex languages sometimes pack entire english sentences in a single word. 

Orkar Isber

Actually i did, but it is kinda...confusing. As stated in another thread it is very hard to get detailed information from one being to the other, if the grammar is limited. You would need 5 sentences to express what other languages do in 1. Or the very complex languages sometimes pack entire english sentences in a single word. 

The dragon language is not a detailed language - it is a blunt language, a hammer driving nails into a semantic board. You wouldn't use it to write the flowing verses of a sonnet or the exact details of a legal contract. You use it to shout at enemies in battle, or carve an everrlasting memorial into a grave.

Dragons are immortal and timeless, and are uniquely attuned to their own language. Each word is packed with meaning, power, and truth, and their understanding of each other is such that they need only a word or two to express themselves.

This is something you have to adapt to when learning the language. Don't go looking for grammar you need in English to express things. You might not find them. Change what you're saying to fit the bluntness of the language.

Thank you a lot for your answer.

A problem i can see there - is it even possible - without too much bending - to actually translate poetry into dovahzul? Like klingon offers translation of shakespear works. I can see how you could translate the bible into dovahzul but shakespear? I fear that you could just translate the meaning but the art would be totally lost

Orkar Isber

Thank you a lot for your answer.

 

A problem i can see there - is it even possible - without too much bending - to actually translate poetry into dovahzul? Like klingon offers translation of shakespear works. I can see how you could translate the bible into dovahzul but shakespear? I fear that you could just translate the meaning but the art would be totally lost

With any translation, the exact meaning and sense of an artwork is going to change. A work of Shakespeare will look as different in Klingon as it would in the dragon language.

and another one - why are there multiple words for the same thing? Inside a single language that usually does not happen - either 2 words derive from 2 different languages like beef - french and cow - german or they mean 2 different things like sword and blade.

to be precise what is the difference between shul and krein? both means sun but what is the difference? does one refer to the sun as star and one to sunlight? or is one sun as celestial body and one to sun as huge fireball? im curious ^^

Orkar Isber

and another one - why are there multiple words for the same thing? Inside a single language that usually does not happen - either 2 words derive from 2 different languages like beef - french and cow - german or they mean 2 different things like sword and blade.

to be precise what is the difference between shul and krein? both means sun but what is the difference? does one refer to the sun as star and one to sunlight? or is one sun as celestial body and one to sun as huge fireball? im curious ^^

Oooh that is so not true xD This is very common in English. In fact, there are at least 4 words for a stupid person - idiot, moron, fool, and stupid. (don't take this the wrong way, this is how much my mate hates English haha) I think you may be underestimating how many languages may have synonyms haha I think synonyms are very common in multiple languages, and I think each dialect contributes to that fact as well. If you want to go deeper into how shul and krein were used, you can go to the uesp pages to see how they were used in the game (if they are in the game) or look at this sites dictionary to see if there are any added comments. Using context may help with the precision bit =) I wouldn't worry too much about it unless you absolutely had to deal with 'twisting the rules.' Besides, isn't the art of poetry taking the words into your own interpretation?

Another thing is that I think I read somewhere that this isn't an advanced language, and Bethesda made it an effort to make it simple, otherwise there would be inconsistencies throughout developement. I would trust in the 'keep it simple' phrase =)

it is true. idiot - greek for individualist, was introduced by psychologists for mentally ill persons.

stupid - latin word for people who cant speak well

fool is actually a french word and moron is again greek...so out of 4 words none is english in origin and most dont even originally mean what they do mean in english.

the germanic word for a stupid person would be dumb - which really is originally of this language but i dont know another english (really english in origin) word for it,

synonyms usually derive from other languages or really do mean something different. magic and sorcery are two very different things in fact so different that crowly invented magick to make a difference between magic and real magick.

dialect does create new words for different things like creating a distinction between snow and wet snow or is just a sound change in the same word.

i think about things. shul is used in the dragon fire shout krein is used in the theme song. so i would guess that shul is the fiery power of the sun while krein really is used for the celestial body. just like an astronomist uses the term sun very differently to an astrologist. one says sun and means the star, the other says sun and means psychological archetypes influencing your personality, with the sun as governor, and a mage may say sun to express the idea of live, live giving, glory...