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A community for the dragon language of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Thuum.org

A community for the dragon language of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Is it a Nordic name or a Dragon name?

 1 

paarthurnax
Administrator
December 17, 2014

I think an often overlooked canon resource are the names of the dozens of dungeons and Nordic ruins that dot Skyrim. What I'm interested in is figuring out which ones might possibly be names in the dragon language.

Below is a short analysis of names that I think are worth looking at. By default I assume all names are Nordic in origin, so I'm searching for very convicing evidence that a name could possibly be dragon. As we'll see, some spellings or patterns can rule out the possibility (unless we really stretch our imaginations). I'm also taking location and function into consideration; the tomb of a dragon priest is more likely to have a dragon name than an old tower on the roadside.

Something to consider is that place names won't follow the same structure as dragon names. The one confirmed Dovahzul place name is Bromjunaar, which simply means "north kingdom."

  • Angarvunde - No dragon words naturally end in "e," so it's highly likley this is Nordic.
  • Ansilvund - contains sil "soul." Nothing about the spelling directly contradicts the possibility of a dragon name, but this is most likely Nordic, especially since it shares the same ending as Angarvunde.
  • Bromjunaar - dragon, means "north kingdom." Also known as Labyrinthian, the former capital of Skyrim and home of the Dragon Cult.
  • Folgunthur - contains thur "overlord," tomb of one of the Gaulderson brothers. It's possibly dragon, but not enough is known to say for sure.
  • Forelhost - Tomb of the dragon priest Rahgot and the final refuge of the Dragon Cult. I have my heart set on this one being a dragon name. Longer explanation below, but I believe this name means something close to "Frostrule Hold."
  • Korvanjund Nordic, nothing much to suggest a dragon origin.
  • Lost Valkygg - adjacent to Bromjunaar. The dragon language doesn't use "y" as a vowel or double consonants unless it's a plural noun, so this is probably Nordic.
  • Nilheim - a barren tower in the Rift. Probably intendent to be Nordic, but incidentally means "void forge" in Dovahzul.
  • Ragnvald Nordic, "gn" isn't used in the dragon language
  • Ruunvald the "uu" is interesting, but this is likely Nordic. This gives us three names that end in -vald that we can say are Nordic.
  • Saarthal - the "aa" is also intriguing, but no canon words match. Probably Nordic given the time Saarthal originated, before the Dragon Cult rose to significant power.
  • Skuldafn - Nordic, "fn" isn't seen in Dovahzul.
  • Ustengrav - burial place of Jurgen Windcaller, founder of the Greybeards and the Way of the Voice.  Contains us "before," but not enough is known to to say this is a dragon name. To speculate, grav could mean "grave." Ten is still unknown unless usten is in fact one word.
  • Valtheim - probably Nordic.
  • Valthume - home of Hevnoraak, possibly derived from thu'um but that's a stretch. Most likely Nordic since dragon words don't naturally end in "e."
  • Volskygge - home of the dragon priest Volsung. Contains vol "horror." The second half of the name is especially interesting because it resembles a plural noun. However, as far as we've seen in the known canon, the dragon language doesn't use "y" as a vowel. We also know that Volsung is a Nordic name, not a dragon name, so this points to Volskygge being most likely Nordic.
  • Volunruud - could be vo + lun ("undo leech"), vol + lun ("horror leech"), or volun, if that's a word. That leaves ruud unknown. All said, most likely Nordic, given that Volskygge is also most likely Nordic.

Even though most of these names are most likely Nordic, we can at least appreciate some of the patterns we see: an-val-vol--vald, and -vund.

A Case for Forelhost

It's at this point in the thread where I begin to grasp at straws as if I'm drowning in hay. But in all honesty, I think I'm onto something, and I think there's both foundation and evidence to back it up.

Forelhost is situated on a mountaintop south of Riften. It's the resting place of the dragon priest Rahgot, and was where a remnant of the Dragon Cult holed after the Dragon War. Here's some dialogue from the Siege on the Dragon Cult quest:

"It seems that after the strength of the Cult was broken in the Dragon War a last contingent came here to create a stronghold and regroup."

We're already familiar with two words in the name: fo "frost" and rel "dominate / rule." This gives us "Frostrule." Both of these make sense given the ruin's mountaintop location, and its purpose as the final seat of power for the Dragon Cult.

All we are left with is host.

It'd be easy enough to say that host sounds like hold, and since Forelhost is a stronghold, host might mean "hold/stronghold." That's all well and good, but it's still conjecture. The main reason I'm convinced host means "stronghold" comes from the German translation of the game.

I've been playing through Skyrim in German lately, mostly to practice my German but to also to see if I can pick up a few things on Dovahzul along the way. Most of the place names are translated, so "Skyrim" is translated to "Himmelsrand," "Riverwood" is translated to "Flußwald," and "Whiterun" is translated to "Weißlauf." Names that aren't translated include non-English names like "Nirn," "Talos," and "Bromjunaar."

I was, then, rather surprised to see that the name "Forelhost" was translated to "Schützburg." This means "refuge castle," definitely an apt description given the history. Since a dragon name wouldn't be translated, this did initially dash my hopes for this being a dragon name, but I noticed something interesting when I looked up Forelhost's translations in other languages.

I found that the name was not translated in either the French, Italian, or even Russian versions of the game. However it is translated in the Spanish version as "Hueste de Forel," or "the Host of Forel." Is this possibly a mixup? Did the German and Spanish localization teams translate "Forelhost" when they weren't supposed to? The Spanish localization clearly took a very literal approach. As I don't speak Spanish, I can't say if "Hueste de Forel" even makes sense.

Ultimately, if Forelhost is a dragon name, and if the German translation was made faithful to that name, then I think there's a real possibility for a new canon word host that means "stronghold" or "fortress." Even without the German translation in consideration, I think Forelhost as meaning "Frostrule Hold" is still solid conjecture. It is described as a stronghold, and the quest name "Siege on the Dragon Cult" also plays with that theme.

TL;DR "Forelhost" could mean "Frostrule Hold," and host could be a new word that means "hold" or "fortress," and could be semi-canon or canon depending on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.

by paarthurnax
December 17, 2014

I think an often overlooked canon resource are the names of the dozens of dungeons and Nordic ruins that dot Skyrim. What I'm interested in is figuring out which ones might possibly be names in the dragon language.

Below is a short analysis of names that I think are worth looking at. By default I assume all names are Nordic in origin, so I'm searching for very convicing evidence that a name could possibly be dragon. As we'll see, some spellings or patterns can rule out the possibility (unless we really stretch our imaginations). I'm also taking location and function into consideration; the tomb of a dragon priest is more likely to have a dragon name than an old tower on the roadside.

Something to consider is that place names won't follow the same structure as dragon names. The one confirmed Dovahzul place name is Bromjunaar, which simply means "north kingdom."

  • Angarvunde - No dragon words naturally end in "e," so it's highly likley this is Nordic.
  • Ansilvund - contains sil "soul." Nothing about the spelling directly contradicts the possibility of a dragon name, but this is most likely Nordic, especially since it shares the same ending as Angarvunde.
  • Bromjunaar - dragon, means "north kingdom." Also known as Labyrinthian, the former capital of Skyrim and home of the Dragon Cult.
  • Folgunthur - contains thur "overlord," tomb of one of the Gaulderson brothers. It's possibly dragon, but not enough is known to say for sure.
  • Forelhost - Tomb of the dragon priest Rahgot and the final refuge of the Dragon Cult. I have my heart set on this one being a dragon name. Longer explanation below, but I believe this name means something close to "Frostrule Hold."
  • Korvanjund Nordic, nothing much to suggest a dragon origin.
  • Lost Valkygg - adjacent to Bromjunaar. The dragon language doesn't use "y" as a vowel or double consonants unless it's a plural noun, so this is probably Nordic.
  • Nilheim - a barren tower in the Rift. Probably intendent to be Nordic, but incidentally means "void forge" in Dovahzul.
  • Ragnvald Nordic, "gn" isn't used in the dragon language
  • Ruunvald the "uu" is interesting, but this is likely Nordic. This gives us three names that end in -vald that we can say are Nordic.
  • Saarthal - the "aa" is also intriguing, but no canon words match. Probably Nordic given the time Saarthal originated, before the Dragon Cult rose to significant power.
  • Skuldafn - Nordic, "fn" isn't seen in Dovahzul.
  • Ustengrav - burial place of Jurgen Windcaller, founder of the Greybeards and the Way of the Voice.  Contains us "before," but not enough is known to to say this is a dragon name. To speculate, grav could mean "grave." Ten is still unknown unless usten is in fact one word.
  • Valtheim - probably Nordic.
  • Valthume - home of Hevnoraak, possibly derived from thu'um but that's a stretch. Most likely Nordic since dragon words don't naturally end in "e."
  • Volskygge - home of the dragon priest Volsung. Contains vol "horror." The second half of the name is especially interesting because it resembles a plural noun. However, as far as we've seen in the known canon, the dragon language doesn't use "y" as a vowel. We also know that Volsung is a Nordic name, not a dragon name, so this points to Volskygge being most likely Nordic.
  • Volunruud - could be vo + lun ("undo leech"), vol + lun ("horror leech"), or volun, if that's a word. That leaves ruud unknown. All said, most likely Nordic, given that Volskygge is also most likely Nordic.

Even though most of these names are most likely Nordic, we can at least appreciate some of the patterns we see: an-val-vol--vald, and -vund.

A Case for Forelhost

It's at this point in the thread where I begin to grasp at straws as if I'm drowning in hay. But in all honesty, I think I'm onto something, and I think there's both foundation and evidence to back it up.

Forelhost is situated on a mountaintop south of Riften. It's the resting place of the dragon priest Rahgot, and was where a remnant of the Dragon Cult holed after the Dragon War. Here's some dialogue from the Siege on the Dragon Cult quest:

"It seems that after the strength of the Cult was broken in the Dragon War a last contingent came here to create a stronghold and regroup."

We're already familiar with two words in the name: fo "frost" and rel "dominate / rule." This gives us "Frostrule." Both of these make sense given the ruin's mountaintop location, and its purpose as the final seat of power for the Dragon Cult.

All we are left with is host.

It'd be easy enough to say that host sounds like hold, and since Forelhost is a stronghold, host might mean "hold/stronghold." That's all well and good, but it's still conjecture. The main reason I'm convinced host means "stronghold" comes from the German translation of the game.

I've been playing through Skyrim in German lately, mostly to practice my German but to also to see if I can pick up a few things on Dovahzul along the way. Most of the place names are translated, so "Skyrim" is translated to "Himmelsrand," "Riverwood" is translated to "Flußwald," and "Whiterun" is translated to "Weißlauf." Names that aren't translated include non-English names like "Nirn," "Talos," and "Bromjunaar."

I was, then, rather surprised to see that the name "Forelhost" was translated to "Schützburg." This means "refuge castle," definitely an apt description given the history. Since a dragon name wouldn't be translated, this did initially dash my hopes for this being a dragon name, but I noticed something interesting when I looked up Forelhost's translations in other languages.

I found that the name was not translated in either the French, Italian, or even Russian versions of the game. However it is translated in the Spanish version as "Hueste de Forel," or "the Host of Forel." Is this possibly a mixup? Did the German and Spanish localization teams translate "Forelhost" when they weren't supposed to? The Spanish localization clearly took a very literal approach. As I don't speak Spanish, I can't say if "Hueste de Forel" even makes sense.

Ultimately, if Forelhost is a dragon name, and if the German translation was made faithful to that name, then I think there's a real possibility for a new canon word host that means "stronghold" or "fortress." Even without the German translation in consideration, I think Forelhost as meaning "Frostrule Hold" is still solid conjecture. It is described as a stronghold, and the quest name "Siege on the Dragon Cult" also plays with that theme.

TL;DR "Forelhost" could mean "Frostrule Hold," and host could be a new word that means "hold" or "fortress," and could be semi-canon or canon depending on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.


dovahnite
December 17, 2014

Given that at least a few Nords were familiar with the Dragon language, is it possible that any names are a combination of Nordic and Dovah?

by dovahnite
December 17, 2014

Given that at least a few Nords were familiar with the Dragon language, is it possible that any names are a combination of Nordic and Dovah?


paarthurnax
Administrator
December 17, 2014
dovahnite

Given that at least a few Nords were familiar with the Dragon language, is it possible that any names are a combination of Nordic and Dovah?

This is a possibility too, though it obviously makes guessing at meaning a lot more difficult.

by paarthurnax
December 17, 2014
dovahnite

Given that at least a few Nords were familiar with the Dragon language, is it possible that any names are a combination of Nordic and Dovah?

This is a possibility too, though it obviously makes guessing at meaning a lot more difficult.


Aaliizah
December 18, 2014

Now this is something I can get into.

I think it's entirely possible that the names of many ancient Nord tombs, ruins, and establishments have roots in the dragon language. In fact, that theory is strongly supported by the book Holdings of Jarl Gjalund. If you haven't read it, it's a sort of census of the lands owned by who I presume was once Jarl of Whiterun. It lists a series of lands, each followed by dragon runes. What's most interesting is that not all names directly transcribe to the Roman names; they're in the actual dragon language (or at least are much closer to the dragon language). H'roldan is written as Ahroldan; Whiterun is Ahrolsedovah (as we know from Paarthurnax); Granite Hill is Qethsegol Ahrol; etc.

Most interesting of these, I think, is H'roldan, or Ahroldan. For now, we'll disregard the fact that dan isn't a known word. While there's no actual date, I think it's safe to say that the book was written quite a while ago (I'd guess maybe early First Era). I'm thinking that as time passed and the Nords' use of the dovah tinvaak died out, the names of places that once held meaning became slurred and, in this way, Ahroldan became H'roldan. This might explain why many names of ancient Nord ruins have the feel of the dragon language without translating exactly to dragon words. 

For example, one might argue that Folgunthur evolved from something like Volgronthur -- dark bind overlord -- which would fit with the Galdurson brother theme.

In short, I don't think it's unreasonable to make a few small leaps of faith here. The study of the dragon language is one big fumble in the dark anyway.

Now, all this about Forelhost is especially interesting.

I was just contemplating this word host when I remembered a sort of theoretical word that I've had in my head for some time that may actually be relevant here: hof. Yes, I know, it sounds kind of funky on its own, but I really do think I might be onto something. (Brace yourself: I'm drawing daring conclusions based on very little evidence.)

Take the canon words hofkiin and hofkah. They contain the words kiin, born, and kah, pride, respectively. Your hofkiin, your home, is (for many) the place where your were born. Your hofkah, however, your steading, is where you work and build and create; something to be proud of. Both of these words have hof in common. If I'm right, this word would probably mean something along the lines of  "building." I realize that at this point I'm on some very shaky ground here, but I'm going to boldly ignore that and propose that your host and my hof may be two variants of the same word with the same meaning -- hof being the original dovah, and host being its second cousin twice removed. Forelhost might have been Forelhof (yeah, I like the first one better, too). This theory, of course, is dependent on my previous theory (about the change in pronounciation of dovah names over time) being true. In other words: not too solid. Motmahus.

Even if everything I just spewed out was total baloney, which it probably is, I'm certain you're on the right track.

by Aaliizah
December 18, 2014

Now this is something I can get into.

I think it's entirely possible that the names of many ancient Nord tombs, ruins, and establishments have roots in the dragon language. In fact, that theory is strongly supported by the book Holdings of Jarl Gjalund. If you haven't read it, it's a sort of census of the lands owned by who I presume was once Jarl of Whiterun. It lists a series of lands, each followed by dragon runes. What's most interesting is that not all names directly transcribe to the Roman names; they're in the actual dragon language (or at least are much closer to the dragon language). H'roldan is written as Ahroldan; Whiterun is Ahrolsedovah (as we know from Paarthurnax); Granite Hill is Qethsegol Ahrol; etc.

Most interesting of these, I think, is H'roldan, or Ahroldan. For now, we'll disregard the fact that dan isn't a known word. While there's no actual date, I think it's safe to say that the book was written quite a while ago (I'd guess maybe early First Era). I'm thinking that as time passed and the Nords' use of the dovah tinvaak died out, the names of places that once held meaning became slurred and, in this way, Ahroldan became H'roldan. This might explain why many names of ancient Nord ruins have the feel of the dragon language without translating exactly to dragon words. 

For example, one might argue that Folgunthur evolved from something like Volgronthur -- dark bind overlord -- which would fit with the Galdurson brother theme.

In short, I don't think it's unreasonable to make a few small leaps of faith here. The study of the dragon language is one big fumble in the dark anyway.

Now, all this about Forelhost is especially interesting.

I was just contemplating this word host when I remembered a sort of theoretical word that I've had in my head for some time that may actually be relevant here: hof. Yes, I know, it sounds kind of funky on its own, but I really do think I might be onto something. (Brace yourself: I'm drawing daring conclusions based on very little evidence.)

Take the canon words hofkiin and hofkah. They contain the words kiin, born, and kah, pride, respectively. Your hofkiin, your home, is (for many) the place where your were born. Your hofkah, however, your steading, is where you work and build and create; something to be proud of. Both of these words have hof in common. If I'm right, this word would probably mean something along the lines of  "building." I realize that at this point I'm on some very shaky ground here, but I'm going to boldly ignore that and propose that your host and my hof may be two variants of the same word with the same meaning -- hof being the original dovah, and host being its second cousin twice removed. Forelhost might have been Forelhof (yeah, I like the first one better, too). This theory, of course, is dependent on my previous theory (about the change in pronounciation of dovah names over time) being true. In other words: not too solid. Motmahus.

Even if everything I just spewed out was total baloney, which it probably is, I'm certain you're on the right track.


paarthurnax
Administrator
December 18, 2014

You might be very surprised to learn, then, that hof is actually the Old English word for "house," "hall," or "dwelling"! Perhaps it's the same for the dragon language (just like tid is the Old English word for "time"). So then host is a Nordic variation on hof, or I'm still set on it being a dragon word for "hold" or "fortress".

by paarthurnax
December 18, 2014

You might be very surprised to learn, then, that hof is actually the Old English word for "house," "hall," or "dwelling"! Perhaps it's the same for the dragon language (just like tid is the Old English word for "time"). So then host is a Nordic variation on hof, or I'm still set on it being a dragon word for "hold" or "fortress".


paarthurnax
Administrator
December 18, 2014

In this light:

hof - hall, dwelling
hofkah - farm/steading, hall of pride (maybe because it's something you own and maintain?)
hofkiin - home, the hall in which one is born
host - hold, stronghold, fortress, alteration of hof

by paarthurnax
December 18, 2014

In this light:

hof - hall, dwelling
hofkah - farm/steading, hall of pride (maybe because it's something you own and maintain?)
hofkiin - home, the hall in which one is born
host - hold, stronghold, fortress, alteration of hof


Aaliizah
December 18, 2014

WHAT. Wow, I feel like a genius. Then everything makes sense! Now all we have to decide is whether host is its own dragon word or derived from hof. It sounds like you're partial to host being its own dovah rot, yes?

by Aaliizah
December 18, 2014

WHAT. Wow, I feel like a genius. Then everything makes sense! Now all we have to decide is whether host is its own dragon word or derived from hof. It sounds like you're partial to host being its own dovah rot, yes?


paarthurnax
Administrator
December 18, 2014
Aaliizah

WHAT. Wow, I feel like a genius. Then everything makes sense! Now all we have to decide is whether host is its own dragon word or derived from hof. It sounds like you're partial to host being its own dovah rot, yes?

Yep, I'm very enthusiastic about host being a dovah rot. I figure that the Dragon Cult would be more likely to give their fortress a whole dovah name rather than some kind of conglomeration between Nordic and Dovahzul.

On the subject of canonocity - I would be willing to grant hof canon status, insofar as it's identical to an Old English word and it perfectly fits two existing canon words, hofkah and hofkiin.

If we decide host might be a dovah rot, I think this should be semi-canon until more confirmation can be found regarding its meaning, since its definition is speculative so far.

by paarthurnax
December 18, 2014
Aaliizah

WHAT. Wow, I feel like a genius. Then everything makes sense! Now all we have to decide is whether host is its own dragon word or derived from hof. It sounds like you're partial to host being its own dovah rot, yes?

Yep, I'm very enthusiastic about host being a dovah rot. I figure that the Dragon Cult would be more likely to give their fortress a whole dovah name rather than some kind of conglomeration between Nordic and Dovahzul.

On the subject of canonocity - I would be willing to grant hof canon status, insofar as it's identical to an Old English word and it perfectly fits two existing canon words, hofkah and hofkiin.

If we decide host might be a dovah rot, I think this should be semi-canon until more confirmation can be found regarding its meaning, since its definition is speculative so far.


Aaliizah
December 19, 2014
Sounds great! I agree on all counts. Balaan tinvaak!
by Aaliizah
December 19, 2014
Sounds great! I agree on all counts. Balaan tinvaak!

Angeluscaligo
February 11, 2015

Ustengrav might actually be of Dovah-origin as a name. As you said, Us means "Before", so Usten might mean "which came before". If Grav is to mean "Grave" or "Tomb", then Ustengrav would translate as "Ancestor-Grave", lit. "Grave of he who came before", as an alussion to Jurgen's history of being the founder of the Greybeards. He is lit. the ancestor of the Greybeards as a society.

Also, Hof means "Garden, Yard, Backyard" in Dutch so your suggestion is more than valid as a hypothesis.

As for Volskygge, it might very well mean "Place of Horror" or "Dreadfull Place". I found that Skygge is literally translated as "Shade, Ghost" in Danish so it might mean "Shadow of Horror". Seeing how Dovah takes Old English & Old Danish poems like Beowulf as inspiration, we could very well confirm Skygge as "Shadow, Ghost". It would follow all canon-rules if slightly modified.

Volunruud might mean "Fear our Tongue" or "Our Tongue of Horror".
Vol + Un = Horror-Our
Ruud might be "Tongue, Speech, Word", similar but also different to Thu'um.

by Angeluscaligo
February 11, 2015

Ustengrav might actually be of Dovah-origin as a name. As you said, Us means "Before", so Usten might mean "which came before". If Grav is to mean "Grave" or "Tomb", then Ustengrav would translate as "Ancestor-Grave", lit. "Grave of he who came before", as an alussion to Jurgen's history of being the founder of the Greybeards. He is lit. the ancestor of the Greybeards as a society.

Also, Hof means "Garden, Yard, Backyard" in Dutch so your suggestion is more than valid as a hypothesis.

As for Volskygge, it might very well mean "Place of Horror" or "Dreadfull Place". I found that Skygge is literally translated as "Shade, Ghost" in Danish so it might mean "Shadow of Horror". Seeing how Dovah takes Old English & Old Danish poems like Beowulf as inspiration, we could very well confirm Skygge as "Shadow, Ghost". It would follow all canon-rules if slightly modified.

Volunruud might mean "Fear our Tongue" or "Our Tongue of Horror".
Vol + Un = Horror-Our
Ruud might be "Tongue, Speech, Word", similar but also different to Thu'um.

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